You Say Goodbye, I Say Hello

I was given a paradox recently.

How do you please a woman who is most pleased by you not trying to please her?

How does one play hard to get in order to attract a woman who would rather have a guy she needs to push into submission as opposed to a guy who’s dying to get on his knees from the start?

I find that there’s no middle of the road for me. When I’m confident, many just assume I’m dominant and when I’m eager to please I’m too submissive.

Surely there must be a middle spot somewhere. (and don’t call me Shirley).

I’ve been meeting some cool new people lately. People in and out of the lifestyle. Ok…Women in and out of the lifestyle. I seem to always wonder if it’s a date or if I’m just hanging out as a friend. I always go into it assuming friends and not displaying any kind of interest. It’s so much better that way. No hard feelings, not needing to worry about getting shot down or being too eager. After all, if she’s interested, hopefully she’ll indicate in some way right?

I’ve never been good at reading signals from women. I have no clue when they’re attracted to me unless they pretty much hold up a sign.

It is very easy to misread playful flirting for real sexual interest however. Especially in the kink scene.

A woman can grab a guys package in leu of a handshake or a hug to say hello and it probably only means “hello” (It’s happened on a number of occasions). Because of this I’ve learned to tune out just about every form of flirting. I think the only way I’ll get the hint from here on is if a woman grabs me and says “I really want to fuck you. I’m dead serious. No… really. I’m not kidding here. See? This is me giving you my number. Here is the address of where my bed is. This is not a dream, this is actually happening.”.

I’ve found myself giving advice to a number of women lately. Specifically about dating submissive men. I always try to give the best advice I can, though I’m not exactly an expert on the subject. My most trying conversation was when a poly friend was complaining about not being able to find a third partner.

I’ll type that part again:

She was complaining about not being able to find a third partner.

Isn’t that like complaining to a homeless guy about not being able to find a good vacation home?


Relate to people as people. I want to type this about 100 times. Seriously. Relate to people as people. Women are people. Get to know them as people. If they are dominant (or want to try it) and over time they find they like you, they will want to hurt and dominate and fuck you.

I don’t know what you’re missing, because you’re obviously a good-looking guy, and you seem charming, and you live in a city with a large population, and so on. But my guess from all that I’ve read is that you really can’t/don’t see women as people – humans, like you, like men. Not different, not special, not strange. Just humans. Your fellow human beings, each a bag of needs and wants and preferences and fears, each crazy in their own way. Like you.

Stop “trying” things and just be a person.

I don’t know. I’m probably off base. But this is what I have gleaned (correctly or not) from your writing over time.

I find that the older I get, I’m 31, the harder it is to establish friendships. There is a wall that is so hard to break down, not like when I was younger and you could be best friends in a month. So with this I have learned patience.

I too have a really hard time reading people. I am not quick to assume that I can tell them a secret because I lack the security of being sure I’m not just being tolerated. Again patience comes into play.

I wish it weren’t so difficult. It sure would be nice to say, “Hey I’m totally into letting you fuck my brains out, you just let me know when.” But that would scare the shit out of just about any normal human being now wouldn’t it?

Maybe ease into it? Lose the desperate puppy dog act, then when you are able to hook up whisper something naughty to her that will open the door to her being in control. Kind of like a surprise. If she isn’t all for it, well then she isn’t who you are looking for. I don’t understand why they wouldn’t want the job. 🙂

I think you need to be less afraid of getting it wrong. So what if you assume the wrong thing when someone shakes your package hello (!). Every once in a while, she’ll actually be flirting with you, and then you won’t have missed the opportunity. If you look foolish the rest of the time? So what??? And probably no one will think you do, anyhow.

This would explain why you blew off Rita Seagrave. Tsk, tsk. Learn to flirt back! We don’t want to have to hit you over the head with a club and drag you off to a cave.

Be less obtuse!

Dev: Your guess is as good as mine.

Sticky: Thankfully, I don’t have any problems making friends.

Marianne: I’ll take your advice next time it happens.

Jocasa: I never blew off Rita Seagrave! When? Where? How?? That’s crazy talk.

You blew off Rita Seagrave!! Oh my god! (I have met Rita Seagrave and she is, like, completely awesome! How could you?)


Okay, after reading the responses I have to say this first; you aren’t abnormal, actually I think your perspective on flirting is dead on.
As a female I communicate with men, often without being aware that I am, on a sexual level (flirting) because that is how I have been taught is the most effective way to communicate with them.
I have put forth the effort to leave out the flirting and I might as well have been talking to a baked potato.
Communicating between (hetro/bi) men and women REQUIRES flirting. So, when you say you’re confused about signals, I get that, because I have flirted with men who I wouldn’t fuck unless I was under anesthesia.
However, knowing that flirtation IS communication with men and is a confusing method of communication, I have become bolder in just saying, “I want to fuck you” (or equal variations) and the responses I have gotten for my efforts?
Nervous laughter. Sprints in the opposite direction. Oh, I was just kidding. Are you always so aggressive? (Which of course is code for “Are you a whore?”)
Seriously, you think women are confusing? Try it on our side. Men SAY, such as you wrote, they want a definitive sign and when they are given one they act like scared little puppies running for cover.
Or they demean a woman for her forward honesty.
Personally, I would cherish a male that could respond to such honesty with equal honesty.
In my experience, that has happened twice to me and both experiences have been exceptional – but men who truly respond to what you have written you want, are the exception, not the rule, so is it any wonder women send such confusing signals?

You blew me off too, ya dork. Own up ;).

Eileen: Nooooo You know that’s not true.

If memory serves, you canceled on me remember? Something about packing for moving to another part of the world or something.

You blew off Eileen? OK, now you’ve really lost my sympathy.


Dev’s 100% right, and I’ve said it to you here on the blog, on my own blog, and in person. Treat women as people. There’s not much more to it, since they are, you know, people. That’s my dark secret. It’s not much more fucking complicated than that.

Well, that and an abundant supply of confidence.

Based on what you said, clearly you should confidently and forcefully talk about how you’re submissive all the time! Why give them the opportunity to assume? And if they still don’t believe you, raise an eyebrow and say, “Wanna bet!?” *grin*

You said: “Isn’t that like complaining to a homeless guy about not being able to find a good vacation home?”

And that reminded me of a “Questionable Content” strip, about pretty much the same thing.

“Your problems are utterly alien to me. It’s like a bear complaining to a shark that its knees hurt.”

Why are the powers that be taking 700B + 25B (auto industry) + 650B (government spend)and giving it back to the crooked blokes that lost the money in the first place? I say take all the money and divide it up amongst all American households. This is life-changing money; mortgages could be shortened (bankers would still get their pay), families could send their kids to college (society would reap the benefits), natural disaster vicitms could rebuild their homes (lives), Baby boomers might be able to retire on their 401(k), Axe could hire a domme (sex-industry rebounds).